15 Apr 1533. 1061. Eustace Chapuys (age 43) to the Emperor (age 33).

On Tuesday the 7th inst., having been informed of the strange and outrageous conduct and proceedings of this king (age 41) against the Queen (age 47), whereof I have written to Your Majesty, I went to Court at the hour appointed for the King's audience, that I might there duly remonstrate against the Queen's treatment. I took with me Mr. Hesdin, who by the consent of the Queen [of Hungary] is now here to claim the arrears of his pension, in order that he might be present, and hear the remonstrances I had to address the King (age 41), hoping also that if I had to use threatening language the King (age 41) might not be so much offended if uttered in the presence of the said Hesdin. On my arrival at Greenwich [Map] the earl of Vulchier (age 56) (Wiltshire) came to meet me, and leading me to the apartments of the duke of Norfolk (age 60), who had just gone to see the Queen (age 47), said to me that the King (age 41) being very much engaged at that hour had deputed him to listen to what I had to say, and report thereupon. My answer was that my communication was of such a nature and so important that I could not possibly make it to anyone but to the King (age 41) in person. Until now he had never refused me audience, or put me off, and I could not think that he would now break through the custom without my having given him any occasion for it, especially as the King (age 41) knew that Your Majesty most willingly received the English ambassadors at all hours, whatever might be their errand or business. The Earl (age 56) repeated his excuses, and seemed at first disinclined to take my answer back to the King (age 41), until at last, perceiving my firm determination, he went in and came back saying the King (age 41) would see me immediately, though he still tried to ascertain what my business was, and advised me to put off my communication until after the festivals. It was settled at last that I should see the King (age 41) on Thursday in Holy Week, on which day having about me a copy of my last despatch [to Your Majesty], I took again the road to Court, accompanied as before by the said Master Hesdin, and was introduced to the Royal presence by the same earl of Wiltshire (age 56). The King (age 41) received us graciously enough. After the usual salutations and inquiries about Your Majesty's health, the King (age 41) asked me what news I had of your movements. I answered that the letters I had received last were rather old, but that I had reason to believe you had already embarked to return to Spain at the beginning of this present month. This statement the King (age 41) easily believed, and was rejoiced to hear (such is his wish to see you fairly out of Italy). I added that the weather for the last days could not have been more favourable, and therefore that it was to be hoped Your Majesty had reached Spain in safety. Having then asked me whether I had other news to communicate, I told him that your brother, the king of the Romans (age 30), had made his peace with the Turk, and that the latter had sent an embassy, at which piece of intelligence the King (age 41) remained for some time in silent astonishment as if he did not know what to answer.

15 Apr 1533. 1061. Eustace Chapuys (age 43) to the Emperor (age 33).

After this, coming to the principal object of my visit, I told him plainly that, although for several days past I had heard of the attempt made both at the convocation of the prelates and in Parliament to impugn the Queen's (age 47) rights, and greatly injure her just cause, I had taken no notice of the facts, inasmuch as I could not be persuaded that so wise, virtuous, and Catholic a prince could possibly authorize or sanction such things, and also because I thought and believed that such practices (menees) could in no wise impair the Queen's (age 47) right or cause her harm. Yet that having lately been apprized from various quarters that such an attempt was really being made, I considered that I could not acquit myself of my duty towards God, towards Your Imperial Majesty, and towards himself if I did not remonstrate at once against such behaviour, and entreat him by his virtue, wisdom, and humanity patiently to listen to my observations as proceeding from my desire for his service, for that though he might disregard and despise man, he would at least respect God. To which the King (age 41) answered that so he had done, and that God and his conscience were perfectly agreed on that point.

Hearing the King (age 41) express himself in this manner and wishing to bring him back to the subject as gently as possible, I observed that my colleague and I could not but be very much flattered at the familiar way in which he had expressed his sentiments, as if we were his own servants, which sentiments, I added, proceeded no doubt from his heart not from his mouth. He assured me, however, that such was not the case, and that what he had just said had been said without dissimulation. Upon which I again said to him that I could not believe that Christianity, being so agitated and troubled by heresies, he could possibly set so bad an example and contravene the treaties of peace and amity which, as he himself, who had been the principal promoter and mediator in them ought to know best, had cost so much time and trouble to make. He ought to know that even supposing no inconvenience arose therefrom in his lifetime there would be most serious ones after his death with regard to the succession. There had never been such a case, I continued, nor did we read of it in history, as for a prince to divorce his legitimate wife after five and twenty years, and marry another woman. Not knowing what to answer to my observations, the King (age 41) gladly seized the opportunity which I gave him by this last statement to contradict me, and said: "Not so long, if you please; and if the world finds this new marriage of mine strange, I find it still more so that the Pope [Julius] should have granted a dispensation for the former." I then mentioned to him five popes who had dispensed in similar cases, and declared that I was unwilling to dispute that matter with him, but that there was no doctor in his kingdom, who after such a debate would not confess that pope Julius was authorized to dispense in the case. After this, coming to speak about the manner in which his solicitors had procured the votes of the university of Paris, on which he founds his principal argument, I offered to produce the letters I had received relating the whole affair, as well as the names of those who had held for the Queen (age 47), but he said there was no necessity at all for that. I, moreover, told him that neither in Spain, nor in Naples, nor in any other country could one single prelate or doctor be found to assert the contrary, and that even in his own kingdom every canonist and lawyer was of the same opinion, with the exception of the few who had been gained over to the other side, and I proposed, in confirmation of my statement, to exhibit other letters, which he likewise refused to see.

At last, wishing to turn the conversation, the King (age 41) said that he wished to ensure the succession to his kingdom by having children, which he had not at present, and upon my remarking to him that he had one daughter, the most virtuous and accomplished that could be thought of, just of suitable age to be married and get children, and that it seemed as if Nature had decided that the succession to the English throne should be through the female line, as he himself had obtained it, and therefore, that he could by marrying the Princess to some one secure the succession he was so anxious for, he replied that he knew better than that; and would marry again in order to have children himself. And upon my observing to him that he could not be sure of that he asked me three times running: "Am I not a man like others?" and he afterwards added: "I need not give proofs of the contrary, or let you into my secrets," no doubt implying thereby that his beloved Lady (age 32) is already in the family way.

15 Apr 1533. 1061. Eustace Chapuys (age 43) to the Emperor (age 33).

After this we came to speak about the Queen (age 47) and to argue whether she had or had not been known by Prince Arthur, and after responding victoriously to the suppositions and conjectures which he alleged in support of his opinion, I produced such arguments in proof of the contrary that he really knew not what to answer. Which arguments having been brought forward on more than one occasion I will not trouble Your Majesty with a reproduction of them, and will only say "que venant a reprendre le dit seigneur roy ce que plusieurs fois il auoit confesse, que la royne demeura pucelle du dit prince Arthus, et voyant quil ne le pouvoit nyer, il dit quil lauoit plusieurs fois dit mais que ce nauoit este que en ieu, et que lhome en iouant et banquetant dit souvent pluseures (sic) choses que ne sont veritables." Having said as much as if he had obtained a great success, or found some subtle point towards the gaining of his cause, he began to recover his self-possession and said confidently to me: "Now I think I have given you full satisfaction on all points; what else do you want?" Whatever the King (age 41) might say the satisfaction was not all-sufficing, but it served me admirably, much more than he himself could imagine, to dispute certain premises he had laid down. I told him that I flattered myself that I was the ambassador of the prince who desired most his welfare, profit, and honour, as well as the tranquillity of his kingdom. I had brought with me Master Hesdin, there present, who was, and acknowledged himself to be, his affectionate servant- as did also all Your Majesty's officers-that he might be present at the conference and hear what his answer was; but I would promise most solemnly that nothing that might be said at that audience should be reported to you unless he himself wished, for I consented to the said Hesdin giving me the lie if I ever attempted to write to Your Majesty anything he (the King) did dislike. This I said to the King (age 41) that I might inspire greater confidence and make him open his heart more fully (lui fere deslier le sac). The better to gain his confidence I told him how happy I had once considered myself at being chosen by Your Majesty to represent your person near so great and magnanimous a king, hoping that his Privy Council, taking due cognizance of the affairs pending between the two crowns, everything should go on smoothly. Now, on the contrary, affairs had taken such a disorderly turn, and were in such confusion that I considered myself unhappy in having to represent Your Majesty, inasmuch as I had continually assured you in my despatches that whatever countenance the King (age 41) put on, and whatever he did his heart and the affection he bore Your Majesty were not affected, and that he would never think of doing anything that might give occasion to suspect that he intended living otherwise than in peace and amity with Your Imperial Majesty. At these words, and without waiting to hear the rest, as if he wished to avoid alt further conversation on this delicate subject, the King (age 41) frowned, and moving his head to and fro, said rather abruptly: "Before I listen to such representations, I must know from whom they proceed, whether from the Emperor, your master, or from yourself; for if they be private remarks of your own I shall know how to answer them." And upon my answering that it was superfluous to ask whether I could have received commission to complain of facts and things which had only taken place a week ago, the intelligence of which would require a full month to be transmitted, and perhaps, too, four successive despatches of mine before it was believed-my general charge and instructions being to maintain by all best means the peace and friendship between Your Majesty and him, and especially to watch over the Queen's (age 47) affairs, since from them depended in a great measure that very friendship-the King (age 41) replied that you yourself had nothing to do with the laws, statutes, and constitutions of his kingdom, and that in spite of all opposition he would pass such laws and ordinances in his dominions as he thought proper, adding many other things in the same strain. My reply was that Your Majesty neither could nor would hinder any such legislative measures, but on the contrary would, if necessary, help him in them unless they personally affected the Queen (age 47), whom he wanted to compel to renounce her appeal [to Rome] and submit entirely to the judgment of the prelates of his kingdom who, either won by promises or threatened with that punishment which had already attained those who upheld the Queen's (age 47) right, could not fail to decide in his favour and against her. After this I repeated what I had told him on previous occasions in Your Majesty's name, that is to say: that the fact of the case being determined here, in England, as he wished, would in nowise remove hereafter the doubts about the succession for the reasons above explained, He, himself, considering how unreasonable and illegal it would be to have the case tried and decided in England, when the authority of the Holy Apostolic See was concerned, had from the beginning of the suit asked the Papal permission for the two cardinals (Campeggio (age 58) and York) to take cognizance of the case here. Even after that he had allowed the Queen (age 47) to appeal to Rome, and in the course of time not satisfied with that had himself, and through others, solicited the Queen (age 47) to consent to the case being tried out of Rome, not here in England, for he knew that to be a most unreasonable demand, but in a neutral place. For these reasons I said the Queen (age 47) cannot and ought not to be tied by laws and statutes to which no one hardly had consented, and which had been carried by compulsion. To this remark of mine the King (age 41) replied half in a passion (demy appassione): "All persuasions and remonstrances are absolutely in vain. Had I known that the audience you applied for had no other object than to speak to me of these things I certainly should have found some excuse to break through the established rule, and escape from such objurgations." But on my representing to him the object of my calling, and telling him that he was positively bound to listen not only to what an ambassador of Your Majesty, but the commonest mortal, had to say to him in a case of this sort, and the courteous and humane manner in which you had always treated his ambassadors, he was obliged to retract, and said that as regarded the commission granted to the two cardinals he could not deny that he himself had applied for it, but that was, he said, under a promise made by the Pope that the cause should never be revoked [from England]; but since His Holiness withdrew all the commissions he had previously given, he (the King) did likewise reject the offer to have the case tried and sentenced in a neutral place, for he wished it to be determined here and not elsewhere. As to his consent to the Queen's (age 47) appeal he had only given it conditionally, and provided the statutes and constitutions of the kingdom allowed of it, not otherwise, and said that lately a prohibitive one had been made in Parliament which the Queen (age 47) herself, as an English subject, was bound to obey. Hearing this I could not help observing that laws and constitutions had no retroactive power, and that they could only be enforced in the future. As to the Queen (age 47) being an English subject I owned that she being his legitimate wife was really and truly such, and that consequently all debate about constitutions and appeals was not only superfluous but out of the question; but that if the Queen (age 47), however, was, as he asserted, not his wife, she could not be called an English subject, for she only resided in this country in virtue of her marriage, not otherwise, and Common Law establishes that the claimant is to bring his action before the tribunal of the country whereof the defendant is a native. The Queen (age 47) might as well ask to have her case tried in Spain, but this she had never attempted, contenting herself that the court to which he himself had firstly applied as claimant should take cognizance of the affair, that being the only true and irrefragable tribunal in her case. And upon his replying that he had not sent for her, and that his brother, the prince of Wales, had first taken her to wife and consummated marriage, I remarked that if he himself had not sent for her he had after his brother's demise kept her by him, and prevented her from going away at the request of her father, the Catholic king of Spain, through his ambassador at this court, Hernand Duque de Estrada, as I could prove by his letters. These, however, the King (age 41) refused to peruse, and again repeated: "She must have patience and obey the laws of this kingdom." Then he added that Your Majesty in return for so many services and favours had done him the greatest possible injury by hindering his new marriage, and preventing his having male succession. That the Queen (age 47) was no more his wife than she was mine, and that he would act in this business just as he pleased, in spite of all opposition and grumbling, and that if Your Majesty capriciously attempted to cause him annoyance he would try to defend himself with the help of his friends.

15 Apr 1533. 1061. Eustace Chapuys (age 43) to the Emperor (age 33).

Lastly, upon my urging upon him that his marriage had been pre-arranged by the King, his father [Henry VII.], and by the Catholic king of Spain [Ferdinand], both of whom were the wisest of their age, and would have never consented to it had there been the least shade of scruple respecting Prince Arthur - which after all was the principal ground of complaint - he again insisted on his determination to act as he pleased in the matter without attending to considerations of any sort whatever, adding that you yourself had shewn him the way to disobey the Pope's injunctions by your appealing four years ago to a future Council. Upon which I told him that he himself could not do better than follow your example and appeal to that very Council, and since he alleged that he was ready to imitate you in this respect, I must warn him that no prince in the world had more respect than you had for His Holiness, or deeper fear of his excommunications, for upon one occasion you had been one whole Holy Week without attending Divine service.

These last words of mine had great effect upon the King (age 41), who no doubt thought that I meant to reproach him for not having obeyed the Papal excommunication and interdict once fulminated against him; he, therefore, was a little hurt and said to me in rather an angry tone of voice: "If you go on like that you will make me lose my temper." I begged him to tell me how I could have offended him, warmly protesting that I had no such intention; then he lowered his voice a little and spoke less harshly, though, notwithstanding all my entreaties, he would never say how or in what I had offended him, and I must say that the rest of our conference passed without any visible signs of ill-humour on his part.

Thus encouraged I asked him whether in the event of Spaniards and Flemings, as good Christians, refusing for fear of the Papal interdict to hold communication, or carry on trade with his subjects, they would be amenable to the penalties described in the statute, and what sort of crime could be imputed to them. He remained for a while thoughtful and startled, not knowing what to answer, which being observed by me I preferred asking leave to retire to remaining where I was and waiting for his answer. I, therefore, said to him: "If such be the state of things I will not trouble Your Highness any more and lose my time; I will withdraw." He then said "adieu" to me in a gracious manner, but retained Hesdin, to whom he addressed the following words; "You have heard what the Emperor's ambassador has just said respecting the Papal excommunication and the stopping of trade between my subjects and the Spaniards and Flemings; but I can tell you that the ecclesiastical censures do not on this occasion fall upon me, but upon the Emperor himself who has so long opposed me, and prevented my new marriage, thus making me live in sin and against the prescriptions of Mother Church. The excommunication, moreover, is of such a nature that the Pope himself could not raise it without my consent; but, pray, do not mention this to the ambassador." This will give Your Majesty an idea of the King's blindness in these matters. Hesdin only replied that the affair was of too much importance for him to mix himself up with it.

15 Apr 1533. 1061. Eustace Chapuys (age 43) to the Emperor (age 33).

About a week ago the sieur de Rochefort (age 30) (George Boleyn) returned from France with the sieur de Beauvoes (Beauvoir), who started yesterday for Scotland for the purpose of inducing king James to place his differences with this King (age 41) into his master's hand, and making him judge and arbiter of their differences. I have been told by a very worthy man that the duke of Albany's secretary returning from a visit to the said Beaulvoys (sic) had assured him that the said ambassador would be unable to accomplish his mission in Scotland, and that war would go on fiercer than ever. Indeed it would seem as if the Scots at this moment more prosperous than ever, for instead of being as before on the defensive, they are continually making raids on the borders. For this purpose did Mr. de Rocchefort (age 30) go to France as it is now ascertained. These people, as I am told, wish immensely for peace with Scotland, but God, as I said above, has taken away their senses, and they cannot see how to bring it about. The said Mr. de Rocchefort (age 30), as his own servants assert, has been presented in France with 2,000 crs., no doubt for the good tidings of his sister's (age 32) marriage, to whom the Most Christian King has now written a letter addressing her as Queen. I fancy, moreover, that the French consider this good news, firstly: because it is likely to be the means of breaking off the friendship between Your Majesty and this king, and also, because it might ultimately be the cause of freeing the French from their debt and payment of pensions, either through sheer necessity, or for fear these people may have of their ultimately joining you, should the Pope proceed to sentence the case and have the censures executed-a thing which, in my opinion, Your Majesty ought to urge in every possible way-the French would be released from all their bonds and pecuniary obligations to this king.