The Itinerary of Archbishop Baldwin through Wales: Book 1 Chapter 4. [15 Apr 1136]. It happened a short time after the death of king Henry I., that Richard de Clare, a nobleman of high birth, and lord of Cardiganshire, passed this way on his journey from England into Wales, accompanied by Brian de Wallingford, lord of this province, and many men-at-arms. At the passage of Coed Grono [Map],⁶⁰ and at the entrance into the wood, he dismissed him and his attendants, though much against their will, and proceeded on his journey unarmed; from too great a presumption of security, preceded only by a minstrel and a singer, one accompanying the other on the fiddle. The Welsh awaiting his arrival, with Iorwerth, brother of Morgan of Caerleon, at their head, and others of his family, rushed upon him unawares from the thickets, and killed him and many of his followers. Thus it appears how incautious and neglectful of itself is too great presumption; for fear teaches foresight and caution in prosperity, but audacity is precipitate, and inconsiderate rashness will not await the advice of the leader.

Note 60. In the vale of the Gronwy, about a mile above Pont Escob, there is a wood called Coed Dial, or the Wood of Revenge. Here again, by the modern name of the place, we are enabled to fix the very spot on which Richard de Clare was murdered. The Welsh Chronicle informs us, that "in 1135, Morgan ap Owen, a man of considerable quality and estate in Wales, remembering the wrong and injury he had received at the hands of Richard Fitz-Gilbert, slew him, together with his son Gilbert." The first of this great family, Richard de Clare, was the eldest son of Gislebert, surnamed Crispin, earl of Brion, in Normandy. This Richard Fitz-Gilbert came into England with William the Conqueror, and received from him great advancement in honour and possessions. On the death of the Conqueror, favouring the cause of Robert Curthose, he rebelled against William Rufus, but when that king appeared in arms before his castle at Tunbridge, he submitted; after which, adhering to Rufus against Robert, in 1091, he was taken prisoner, and shortly after the death of king Henry I., was assassinated, on his journey through Wales, in the manner already related.

Chronica Majora. 15 Apr 1237. About the same time, namely on the 15th of April, died Richard, the second bishop of Durham of that name; a man of unparalleled piety and profound learning, who had strenuously ruled over three episcopal churches; namely, those of Chichester, Salisbury, and, finally, that of Durham, which he had presided over with all prosperity, and had released it from a heavy debt, incurred by the first Richard, surnamed Marsh, his predecessor. The sum of money which the aforesaid bishop, the second Richard, paid by way of settlement of the debt, was reckoned at more than four thousand marks. It also redounds to his immortal praise, that he transferred the church of Salisbury from a hollow, dry place in the neighbourhood of the earl's castle, to a fitting situation, and by the help of some famous architects, whom he had summoned from distant provinces, he laid a large foundation, and himself placed the first stone; to promote which work, not only the bishop, but also the king, and a great many nobles, lent a helping hand. Hence some versifier gives, - "Rex largitur opes, fert prsesul opem, lapicidae Dant operam; tribus his est opus, ut stet opus. [The king finds money, the stonemason hands. The bishop aids, and so the building stands.]

Besides this, he founded an establishment of nuns, at Tarent, and gave it to the queen, where he chose his burial-place. When the time of his dissolution drew nigh, the bishop, seeing that the hour was come for him to pass from this world, preached a special discourse to the assembled people, and told them that his death was at hand; on the following day, as his disease gained ground, he again assembled the people, and repeated his discourse, bidding them all farewell, and asking pardon of whomsoever he had offended. On the third day he summoned his family, and those to whom he was bound particularly to afford protection, and divided amongst them whatever appeared necessary to be distributed, to each one according to his deserts; and, having arranged and completed all his affairs with proper deliberation, and taken leave of his friends one by one, and, finally, performing the midnight devotions, he uttered the verse, "I will both lay me down in peace and sleep," and fell asleep in the Lord in all happiness. The monks of Durham, then, after invoking assistance from above, elected their prior, Thomas, a religious and discreet man, as their bishop and pastor of their souls.

Calendars. 15 Apr 1533. 1061. Eustace Chapuys (age 43) to the Emperor (age 33).

About a week ago the sieur de Rochefort (age 30) (George Boleyn) returned from France with the sieur de Beauvoes (Beauvoir), who started yesterday for Scotland for the purpose of inducing king James to place his differences with this King (age 41) into his master's hand, and making him judge and arbiter of their differences. I have been told by a very worthy man that the duke of Albany's secretary returning from a visit to the said Beaulvoys (sic) had assured him that the said ambassador would be unable to accomplish his mission in Scotland, and that war would go on fiercer than ever. Indeed it would seem as if the Scots at this moment more prosperous than ever, for instead of being as before on the defensive, they are continually making raids on the borders. For this purpose did Mr. de Rocchefort (age 30) go to France as it is now ascertained. These people, as I am told, wish immensely for peace with Scotland, but God, as I said above, has taken away their senses, and they cannot see how to bring it about. The said Mr. de Rocchefort (age 30), as his own servants assert, has been presented in France with 2,000 crs., no doubt for the good tidings of his sister's (age 32) marriage, to whom the Most Christian King has now written a letter addressing her as Queen. I fancy, moreover, that the French consider this good news, firstly: because it is likely to be the means of breaking off the friendship between Your Majesty and this king, and also, because it might ultimately be the cause of freeing the French from their debt and payment of pensions, either through sheer necessity, or for fear these people may have of their ultimately joining you, should the Pope proceed to sentence the case and have the censures executed-a thing which, in my opinion, Your Majesty ought to urge in every possible way-the French would be released from all their bonds and pecuniary obligations to this king.

Calendars. 15 Apr 1533. 1061. Eustace Chapuys (age 43) to the Emperor (age 33).

After this we came to speak about the Queen (age 47) and to argue whether she had or had not been known by Prince Arthur, and after responding victoriously to the suppositions and conjectures which he alleged in support of his opinion, I produced such arguments in proof of the contrary that he really knew not what to answer. Which arguments having been brought forward on more than one occasion I will not trouble Your Majesty with a reproduction of them, and will only say "que venant a reprendre le dit seigneur roy ce que plusieurs fois il auoit confesse, que la royne demeura pucelle du dit prince Arthus, et voyant quil ne le pouvoit nyer, il dit quil lauoit plusieurs fois dit mais que ce nauoit este que en ieu, et que lhome en iouant et banquetant dit souvent pluseures (sic) choses que ne sont veritables." Having said as much as if he had obtained a great success, or found some subtle point towards the gaining of his cause, he began to recover his self-possession and said confidently to me: "Now I think I have given you full satisfaction on all points; what else do you want?" Whatever the King (age 41) might say the satisfaction was not all-sufficing, but it served me admirably, much more than he himself could imagine, to dispute certain premises he had laid down. I told him that I flattered myself that I was the ambassador of the prince who desired most his welfare, profit, and honour, as well as the tranquillity of his kingdom. I had brought with me Master Hesdin, there present, who was, and acknowledged himself to be, his affectionate servant- as did also all Your Majesty's officers-that he might be present at the conference and hear what his answer was; but I would promise most solemnly that nothing that might be said at that audience should be reported to you unless he himself wished, for I consented to the said Hesdin giving me the lie if I ever attempted to write to Your Majesty anything he (the King) did dislike. This I said to the King (age 41) that I might inspire greater confidence and make him open his heart more fully (lui fere deslier le sac). The better to gain his confidence I told him how happy I had once considered myself at being chosen by Your Majesty to represent your person near so great and magnanimous a king, hoping that his Privy Council, taking due cognizance of the affairs pending between the two crowns, everything should go on smoothly. Now, on the contrary, affairs had taken such a disorderly turn, and were in such confusion that I considered myself unhappy in having to represent Your Majesty, inasmuch as I had continually assured you in my despatches that whatever countenance the King (age 41) put on, and whatever he did his heart and the affection he bore Your Majesty were not affected, and that he would never think of doing anything that might give occasion to suspect that he intended living otherwise than in peace and amity with Your Imperial Majesty. At these words, and without waiting to hear the rest, as if he wished to avoid alt further conversation on this delicate subject, the King (age 41) frowned, and moving his head to and fro, said rather abruptly: "Before I listen to such representations, I must know from whom they proceed, whether from the Emperor, your master, or from yourself; for if they be private remarks of your own I shall know how to answer them." And upon my answering that it was superfluous to ask whether I could have received commission to complain of facts and things which had only taken place a week ago, the intelligence of which would require a full month to be transmitted, and perhaps, too, four successive despatches of mine before it was believed-my general charge and instructions being to maintain by all best means the peace and friendship between Your Majesty and him, and especially to watch over the Queen's (age 47) affairs, since from them depended in a great measure that very friendship-the King (age 41) replied that you yourself had nothing to do with the laws, statutes, and constitutions of his kingdom, and that in spite of all opposition he would pass such laws and ordinances in his dominions as he thought proper, adding many other things in the same strain. My reply was that Your Majesty neither could nor would hinder any such legislative measures, but on the contrary would, if necessary, help him in them unless they personally affected the Queen (age 47), whom he wanted to compel to renounce her appeal [to Rome] and submit entirely to the judgment of the prelates of his kingdom who, either won by promises or threatened with that punishment which had already attained those who upheld the Queen's (age 47) right, could not fail to decide in his favour and against her. After this I repeated what I had told him on previous occasions in Your Majesty's name, that is to say: that the fact of the case being determined here, in England, as he wished, would in nowise remove hereafter the doubts about the succession for the reasons above explained, He, himself, considering how unreasonable and illegal it would be to have the case tried and decided in England, when the authority of the Holy Apostolic See was concerned, had from the beginning of the suit asked the Papal permission for the two cardinals (Campeggio (age 58) and York) to take cognizance of the case here. Even after that he had allowed the Queen (age 47) to appeal to Rome, and in the course of time not satisfied with that had himself, and through others, solicited the Queen (age 47) to consent to the case being tried out of Rome, not here in England, for he knew that to be a most unreasonable demand, but in a neutral place. For these reasons I said the Queen (age 47) cannot and ought not to be tied by laws and statutes to which no one hardly had consented, and which had been carried by compulsion. To this remark of mine the King (age 41) replied half in a passion (demy appassione): "All persuasions and remonstrances are absolutely in vain. Had I known that the audience you applied for had no other object than to speak to me of these things I certainly should have found some excuse to break through the established rule, and escape from such objurgations." But on my representing to him the object of my calling, and telling him that he was positively bound to listen not only to what an ambassador of Your Majesty, but the commonest mortal, had to say to him in a case of this sort, and the courteous and humane manner in which you had always treated his ambassadors, he was obliged to retract, and said that as regarded the commission granted to the two cardinals he could not deny that he himself had applied for it, but that was, he said, under a promise made by the Pope that the cause should never be revoked [from England]; but since His Holiness withdrew all the commissions he had previously given, he (the King) did likewise reject the offer to have the case tried and sentenced in a neutral place, for he wished it to be determined here and not elsewhere. As to his consent to the Queen's (age 47) appeal he had only given it conditionally, and provided the statutes and constitutions of the kingdom allowed of it, not otherwise, and said that lately a prohibitive one had been made in Parliament which the Queen (age 47) herself, as an English subject, was bound to obey. Hearing this I could not help observing that laws and constitutions had no retroactive power, and that they could only be enforced in the future. As to the Queen (age 47) being an English subject I owned that she being his legitimate wife was really and truly such, and that consequently all debate about constitutions and appeals was not only superfluous but out of the question; but that if the Queen (age 47), however, was, as he asserted, not his wife, she could not be called an English subject, for she only resided in this country in virtue of her marriage, not otherwise, and Common Law establishes that the claimant is to bring his action before the tribunal of the country whereof the defendant is a native. The Queen (age 47) might as well ask to have her case tried in Spain, but this she had never attempted, contenting herself that the court to which he himself had firstly applied as claimant should take cognizance of the affair, that being the only true and irrefragable tribunal in her case. And upon his replying that he had not sent for her, and that his brother, the prince of Wales, had first taken her to wife and consummated marriage, I remarked that if he himself had not sent for her he had after his brother's demise kept her by him, and prevented her from going away at the request of her father, the Catholic king of Spain, through his ambassador at this court, Hernand Duque de Estrada, as I could prove by his letters. These, however, the King (age 41) refused to peruse, and again repeated: "She must have patience and obey the laws of this kingdom." Then he added that Your Majesty in return for so many services and favours had done him the greatest possible injury by hindering his new marriage, and preventing his having male succession. That the Queen (age 47) was no more his wife than she was mine, and that he would act in this business just as he pleased, in spite of all opposition and grumbling, and that if Your Majesty capriciously attempted to cause him annoyance he would try to defend himself with the help of his friends.

Calendars. 15 Apr 1533. 1061. Eustace Chapuys (age 43) to the Emperor (age 33).

After this, coming to the principal object of my visit, I told him plainly that, although for several days past I had heard of the attempt made both at the convocation of the prelates and in Parliament to impugn the Queen's (age 47) rights, and greatly injure her just cause, I had taken no notice of the facts, inasmuch as I could not be persuaded that so wise, virtuous, and Catholic a prince could possibly authorize or sanction such things, and also because I thought and believed that such practices (menees) could in no wise impair the Queen's (age 47) right or cause her harm. Yet that having lately been apprized from various quarters that such an attempt was really being made, I considered that I could not acquit myself of my duty towards God, towards Your Imperial Majesty, and towards himself if I did not remonstrate at once against such behaviour, and entreat him by his virtue, wisdom, and humanity patiently to listen to my observations as proceeding from my desire for his service, for that though he might disregard and despise man, he would at least respect God. To which the King (age 41) answered that so he had done, and that God and his conscience were perfectly agreed on that point.

Hearing the King (age 41) express himself in this manner and wishing to bring him back to the subject as gently as possible, I observed that my colleague and I could not but be very much flattered at the familiar way in which he had expressed his sentiments, as if we were his own servants, which sentiments, I added, proceeded no doubt from his heart not from his mouth. He assured me, however, that such was not the case, and that what he had just said had been said without dissimulation. Upon which I again said to him that I could not believe that Christianity, being so agitated and troubled by heresies, he could possibly set so bad an example and contravene the treaties of peace and amity which, as he himself, who had been the principal promoter and mediator in them ought to know best, had cost so much time and trouble to make. He ought to know that even supposing no inconvenience arose therefrom in his lifetime there would be most serious ones after his death with regard to the succession. There had never been such a case, I continued, nor did we read of it in history, as for a prince to divorce his legitimate wife after five and twenty years, and marry another woman. Not knowing what to answer to my observations, the King (age 41) gladly seized the opportunity which I gave him by this last statement to contradict me, and said: "Not so long, if you please; and if the world finds this new marriage of mine strange, I find it still more so that the Pope [Julius] should have granted a dispensation for the former." I then mentioned to him five popes who had dispensed in similar cases, and declared that I was unwilling to dispute that matter with him, but that there was no doctor in his kingdom, who after such a debate would not confess that pope Julius was authorized to dispense in the case. After this, coming to speak about the manner in which his solicitors had procured the votes of the university of Paris, on which he founds his principal argument, I offered to produce the letters I had received relating the whole affair, as well as the names of those who had held for the Queen (age 47), but he said there was no necessity at all for that. I, moreover, told him that neither in Spain, nor in Naples, nor in any other country could one single prelate or doctor be found to assert the contrary, and that even in his own kingdom every canonist and lawyer was of the same opinion, with the exception of the few who had been gained over to the other side, and I proposed, in confirmation of my statement, to exhibit other letters, which he likewise refused to see.

At last, wishing to turn the conversation, the King (age 41) said that he wished to ensure the succession to his kingdom by having children, which he had not at present, and upon my remarking to him that he had one daughter, the most virtuous and accomplished that could be thought of, just of suitable age to be married and get children, and that it seemed as if Nature had decided that the succession to the English throne should be through the female line, as he himself had obtained it, and therefore, that he could by marrying the Princess to some one secure the succession he was so anxious for, he replied that he knew better than that; and would marry again in order to have children himself. And upon my observing to him that he could not be sure of that he asked me three times running: "Am I not a man like others?" and he afterwards added: "I need not give proofs of the contrary, or let you into my secrets," no doubt implying thereby that his beloved Lady (age 32) is already in the family way.

Calendars. 15 Apr 1533. 1061. Eustace Chapuys (age 43) to the Emperor (age 33).

On Tuesday the 7th inst., having been informed of the strange and outrageous conduct and proceedings of this king (age 41) against the Queen (age 47), whereof I have written to Your Majesty, I went to Court at the hour appointed for the King's audience, that I might there duly remonstrate against the Queen's treatment. I took with me Mr. Hesdin, who by the consent of the Queen [of Hungary] is now here to claim the arrears of his pension, in order that he might be present, and hear the remonstrances I had to address the King (age 41), hoping also that if I had to use threatening language the King (age 41) might not be so much offended if uttered in the presence of the said Hesdin. On my arrival at Greenwich [Map] the earl of Vulchier (age 56) (Wiltshire) came to meet me, and leading me to the apartments of the duke of Norfolk (age 60), who had just gone to see the Queen (age 47), said to me that the King (age 41) being very much engaged at that hour had deputed him to listen to what I had to say, and report thereupon. My answer was that my communication was of such a nature and so important that I could not possibly make it to anyone but to the King (age 41) in person. Until now he had never refused me audience, or put me off, and I could not think that he would now break through the custom without my having given him any occasion for it, especially as the King (age 41) knew that Your Majesty most willingly received the English ambassadors at all hours, whatever might be their errand or business. The Earl (age 56) repeated his excuses, and seemed at first disinclined to take my answer back to the King (age 41), until at last, perceiving my firm determination, he went in and came back saying the King (age 41) would see me immediately, though he still tried to ascertain what my business was, and advised me to put off my communication until after the festivals. It was settled at last that I should see the King (age 41) on Thursday in Holy Week, on which day having about me a copy of my last despatch [to Your Majesty], I took again the road to Court, accompanied as before by the said Master Hesdin, and was introduced to the Royal presence by the same earl of Wiltshire (age 56). The King (age 41) received us graciously enough. After the usual salutations and inquiries about Your Majesty's health, the King (age 41) asked me what news I had of your movements. I answered that the letters I had received last were rather old, but that I had reason to believe you had already embarked to return to Spain at the beginning of this present month. This statement the King (age 41) easily believed, and was rejoiced to hear (such is his wish to see you fairly out of Italy). I added that the weather for the last days could not have been more favourable, and therefore that it was to be hoped Your Majesty had reached Spain in safety. Having then asked me whether I had other news to communicate, I told him that your brother, the king of the Romans (age 30), had made his peace with the Turk, and that the latter had sent an embassy, at which piece of intelligence the King (age 41) remained for some time in silent astonishment as if he did not know what to answer.

Letters and Papers 1533. 15 Apr 1533. 351. On Wednesday the duke of Norfolk, and the other Commissioners of whom I lately wrote, declared their charge to the Queen, which was in substance to persuade her to give up her appeal, and be content to have the cause settled here; in doing which she would not only lay the whole kingdom under obligations to her, and prevent the effusion of blood, but the King would treat her better than she could ask. At last, perceiving there was no hope of getting her to comply, they told her they were charged by the King to say that she must not weary herself about it any longer, for he had married the other lady more than two months ago, in presence of several persons, though none of them had been invited to it. Then, after many gracious words and excuses for what they were doing, as only out of obedience to the King's command, they departed. After their departure Lord Mountjoy, the Queen's chamberlain, came to notify her that the King would not allow her henceforth to call herself Queen, and that at the close of one month after Easter he would not defray her expenses, nor the wages of her servants, and he intended that she should retire to some of her own houses and live on a small income, which he had assigned her, which would not suffice for her attendants a quarter of a year. She replied that as long as she lived she would call herself Queen. As to keeping house, she would not commence so late; and if the King felt himself so much aggrieved at the expense of her allowance, she would be satisfied with what she had, and with her confessor, physician, apothecary, and two women, and go wherever he wished. Otherwise, failing of food for herself and her servants, she would go and beg for the love of God. Although the King himself is not ill-natured, it is this Anne (age 32) who has put him in this perverse and wicked temper, and alienates him from his former humanity, and we must believe that she will never cease until she has seen the end of the Queen, as she has done that of the Cardinal, whom she did not hate so much. The Queen has no fears, but is marvellously concerned for the Princess.

Letters and Papers 1533. 15 Apr 1533. 351. Then, entering on the principal topic, I told him that, notwithstanding that it was many days since I had heard some rumor of what was going on in Convocation, as also in Parliament, in prejudice of the Queen, her right and justice; yet I had not been willing to take notice of it, because I could not believe that so virtuous, wise, and Catholic a prince would consent to such things, and because I know that such practices could not derogate from the Queen's right. Now, however, as I have been lately advertised by several persons of these practices, I had thought that I could not acquit myself towards God or your Majesty, or himself, without making the necessary remonstrances, which I begged he would take in good part; and since he had no regard for men, all of whom he despised, that he would have respect to God. He told me that he did so, and that God and his conscience were on very good terms. After he had thus disgorged himself, in order to bring him back graciously, I told him that he showed he took us for servants and friends, speaking to us so familiarly, words which I thought proceeded from his mouth and not from his heart. He told me that he had spoken without dissimulation. On this I proceeded to say that I could not believe he wished to give such an example, seeing how Christendom was already troubled by so many heresies, or to break the treaties he had done so much to promote. I told him I had never heard of so strange a case of one leaving his wife after 25 years. He was very glad, not knowing what to answer to the rest, to take hold of this last point, saying it was not so long a time; and that if the world thought this divorce very extraordinary, still more the world found it strange that the Pope should have dispensed in it without having the power to do so. I referred him to five Popes who had dispensed in such a case, and that I had no wish to dispute the matter with him; but there was not a doctor in his kingdom, if it came to the point, that would not confess the truth. And proceeding to speak of the solicitation that had been made to obtain the seal of the university of Paris, on which he rested much, I desired to show him the letters and the names of those who had held the Queen's side; and he said he did not want to see them. I also told him that neither in Spain, Naples, nor elsewhere, could any prelates or doctors be found that were not on the Queen's side; and that even in his own kingdom there were some of the same opinion, unless they had been gained. And here I offered to show him letters, which he refused to see. To divert the conversation, he said that he wished to have a successor to his kingdom; and when I said to him that he had a daughter endowed with all imaginable goodness and virtue, and of an age to bear children, and that as he had received the principal title to his realm by the female line, nature seemed to oblige him to restore it to the Princess, he replied that he knew better than his daughter, and that he wished to have children. And when I said to him he was not sure of having them, he asked me three times if he was not a man like other men (si nestoit point home comme les autres), adding that I had no reason to affirm the contrary, seeing I was not privy to all his secrets; leaving me clearly to understand that his beloved lady was enceinte.

We then proceeded to discuss the point whether the Queen was known to prince Arthur; but with these arguments I need not trouble you. But when I urged that he had oftentimes confessed that the Queen was a virgin, and he could not deny it, he admitted it, saying it was spoken in jest, as a man, jesting and feasting, says many things which are not true. And when he had said this, as if he had won a very great victory, or discovered some great subtlety for gaining his purpose, he began to crow, telling me, "Now have I paid you off? What more would you have?" But his payment was not in current coin, and served me more than he thought, to defeat some words of the ambassador of that prince who most desires his honor and profit and the tranquillity of his kingdoms... I told him I wished to bring with me the said Hédin, who was and was reputed to be his servant, as were all those belonging to your Majesty; and I protested that whatever might be there said, I did not intend to write a word of it, except as he pleased, in order that hereafter the said Hédin might not contradict me. I made these observations in order to put him at his ease, and make him open his budget; and to confirm him the more, I said that heretofore I had considered myself very happy, that I had been sent to such a prince as he was, hoping that when the affairs had been studied by his council, he would redress them without difficulty. But as matters went now, I must consider myself unhappy that such a disorder had arisen, and that I had always assured you that, whatever face he might carry, his heart was sound, and he would maintain good relations with you. On hearing this, without having patience to listen further, and being marvellously desirous, as it appeared, to find some means of not entering on the matter, wrinkling his forehead and changing his look, he commenced saying, very brusquely, that all such remonstrances were useless, and he wished primarily to understand whether I had any charge from you to do this, for if I spoke of myself it would be another thing. I replied that it was evidently superfluous (chose trop excusee) to ask me if I had a commission from you to speak of matters that had arisen within eight days, and of which you could not have had notice within a month, and asked if he must receive more than four pairs of letters before he would give me credit, when my general commission was by all lawful means to assist in preserving the amity between you, and I had special charge in the Queen's matter, which was no small part of the said amity. Then he said that your Majesty had no right to interfere with his laws, and, whatever might be said of them, he would pass such laws in his kingdom as he liked,—with more to the same purpose. I told him that your Majesty did not wish to stop him from so doing, and that, in case of necessity, you would assist him; and that I did not intend to speak of his laws, except so far as they concerned the Queen, whom he wished to compel to renounce her appeal, and leave her case to be decided by his subjects, who, through promises or threats, or from pure fear, seeing how very ill he had acted towards many who had ventured to oppose him, would only determine according to his fancy. And hereupon I repeated what I had often said before, that if the affair was determined here, it would not hereafter remove the doubt of the succession; and if he would consider how unreasonable it was and unjust to have the case tried here, seeing he had already submitted it to the See Apostolic and obtained a commission for Campeggio and York, and had expressly agreed to the Queen's appeal to Rome, and afterwards, not content therewith, had solicited the Queen to have the cause tried out of Rome, but not in this country, as it was unreasonable, but in some neutral place, the Queen could not be constrained to any pretended constitution, whereto scarcely anyone had consented except by force. Hereupon, half in a fury, he told me there was no use in persuasion or remonstrance, and that if he had known that I was to speak of nothing else, he would have excused himself from giving me audience, searching, as before, to break off the argument and escape the conversation. On my repeating the intention for which I had come thither, and that it was his duty to hear not only your ambassador, but the least man in the world, and softly putting before him the constant kindness you had always shown to his ambassadors, he was constrained to stay, and proceeded to reply that as for the Cardinal's commission, it had been granted on the promise of the Pope, who had assured him he would never revoke the cause from here; but that now he would have nothing to do with any papal commission; and as to the offer that the affair should be decided in a neutral place, he would not consent, for he would have it decided here; that his consent to the Queen's appeal was only on condition that it could be done by the laws and privileges of this kingdom; that the statute of prohibition had been passed by Parliament, which the Queen, as a subject, was compelled to obey. On this I said that laws were prospective and not retrospective; and that as to the Queen, it was true that in being his wife she was a subject, and, presupposing this, there was no question at all as to the constitutions or appeals; but if he did not consider her as his wife, she could not be regarded as a subject, for she only resided here in virtue of her marriage, and if he disavowed her she would not remain his subject, and might claim her right of being conveyed to Spain, which could not be until the affair was decided before him to whom he had first recourse. On his replying that he had not made her come, but Prince Arthur with whom she had consummated the marriage, I replied that although he had not asked her to come, he had prevented her from returning after the death of prince Arthur, when the King Catholic sent to ask for her by Hernand duke d'Estrada, as I showed him by letters, which he refused to read, saying again that she must have patience and obey the laws; and that your Majesty, in recompence of the many favors he had done to you, had done him the greatest and most grievous injury, in having kept him so long from marrying and propagating the line of his succession; that the Queen was no more his wife than she was mine; that he would treat her as he intended, in spite of any one who might growl at it; and that if you, for your pleasure or fancy, gave him any trouble, he would defend himself with the help of his friends. When I showed him that the marriage had been solemnised by his father and the King Catholic, the two wisest princes in the world, who would never have consented if there had been any scruple in reference to prince Arthur, on which he laid so much stress, he said he would do as he liked, without caring for anything, and that your Majesty had shown him the way of not always obeying the Pope, by the appeal you had made four years ago to a future council. On this I told him that he would act like a good Catholic to follow the same path and appeal to the Council; and since he alleged your example, I wished him to notice that you had shown great respect for the excommunication, for that in Holy Week you had abstained from attending at mass. At these words he showed himself very much nettled, fearing, as I think, lest I should say to him that he did wrong in not obeying the excommunication and interdict already published against him; and drawing himself up a little, he said that I stung him. I begged of him to know in what, and that I would not for anything in the world have thought of so doing. Hereon he became a little more gracious, but though I pressed him much he would not tell me in what he felt himself stung, nor has he told me since. At the close I asked him, supposing the Spaniards and the Flemings, like good Christians, for fear of the interdict, would not have intercourse with his subjects, whether they would incur the penalty of his laws, and whether any one could blame them? He remained thoughtful and dumbfoundered, not knowing what to say. Hereupon, wishing to take my leave rather than that he should abruptly break off the conversation, I said that as matters were in such a bad state, I would labor no longer nor waste my time. He gave me a gracious adieu, retaining Hédin, only to tell him, as he has reported, "You have heard the Ambassador, who speaks of excommunication and prohibiting intercourse. I give you notice that it is not I but the Emperor who is excommunicated, because he has long opposed me, not allowing me to get out of the sin in which I was, and has put off my marriage; and this is the kind of excommunication which the Pope cannot remit without my consent. But do not tell the Ambassador a word of it." Your Majesty can well imagine his blindness. Hédin only replied that these were matters too high for him, and beyond his digestion (gabiers, i.e. gavier). We then returned without dining there, notwithstanding we were pressed to do so by Wiltshire, who manages in the absence of the Duke.

Calendars. 15 Apr 1533. 1061. Eustace Chapuys (age 43) to the Emperor (age 33).

Lastly, upon my urging upon him that his marriage had been pre-arranged by the King, his father [Henry VII.], and by the Catholic king of Spain [Ferdinand], both of whom were the wisest of their age, and would have never consented to it had there been the least shade of scruple respecting Prince Arthur - which after all was the principal ground of complaint - he again insisted on his determination to act as he pleased in the matter without attending to considerations of any sort whatever, adding that you yourself had shewn him the way to disobey the Pope's injunctions by your appealing four years ago to a future Council. Upon which I told him that he himself could not do better than follow your example and appeal to that very Council, and since he alleged that he was ready to imitate you in this respect, I must warn him that no prince in the world had more respect than you had for His Holiness, or deeper fear of his excommunications, for upon one occasion you had been one whole Holy Week without attending Divine service.

These last words of mine had great effect upon the King (age 41), who no doubt thought that I meant to reproach him for not having obeyed the Papal excommunication and interdict once fulminated against him; he, therefore, was a little hurt and said to me in rather an angry tone of voice: "If you go on like that you will make me lose my temper." I begged him to tell me how I could have offended him, warmly protesting that I had no such intention; then he lowered his voice a little and spoke less harshly, though, notwithstanding all my entreaties, he would never say how or in what I had offended him, and I must say that the rest of our conference passed without any visible signs of ill-humour on his part.

Thus encouraged I asked him whether in the event of Spaniards and Flemings, as good Christians, refusing for fear of the Papal interdict to hold communication, or carry on trade with his subjects, they would be amenable to the penalties described in the statute, and what sort of crime could be imputed to them. He remained for a while thoughtful and startled, not knowing what to answer, which being observed by me I preferred asking leave to retire to remaining where I was and waiting for his answer. I, therefore, said to him: "If such be the state of things I will not trouble Your Highness any more and lose my time; I will withdraw." He then said "adieu" to me in a gracious manner, but retained Hesdin, to whom he addressed the following words; "You have heard what the Emperor's ambassador has just said respecting the Papal excommunication and the stopping of trade between my subjects and the Spaniards and Flemings; but I can tell you that the ecclesiastical censures do not on this occasion fall upon me, but upon the Emperor himself who has so long opposed me, and prevented my new marriage, thus making me live in sin and against the prescriptions of Mother Church. The excommunication, moreover, is of such a nature that the Pope himself could not raise it without my consent; but, pray, do not mention this to the ambassador." This will give Your Majesty an idea of the King's blindness in these matters. Hesdin only replied that the affair was of too much importance for him to mix himself up with it.